October 12th, 2007

Episode 54: Here in This Space.

We give a good bit of discussion over to the phrase “modernist heresy,” the gist of which is as old as each new generation, we’ve got some new picks of the week, as well as a the idea of a la carte cable television. Also, we cover some of the backChat on our website over the past week.

Fr. Chris | Posted in CU Podcast | 17 Comments »

  • http://catholicboard.com Carson Weber

    Josh[ua],

    It’s fun to see you mention the same books I was assigned to read back when I was a grad student in Steubenville. You’re reading Ratzinger’s The Nature and Mission of Theology for Dr. Hahn’s class and Raymond Brown’s book for Minto’s class… is that right?

  • Fr. Javier Cosentino

    Hi!
    Hey, very interesting show… really nice…
    Thanks a lot… I really enjoy!
    God bless you!

    Fr. Javier Cosentino

  • http://www.cybercatholics.com Joshua

    Yep Carson you’ve got it!

  • http://www.siministries.org Peter Mottola

    I was listening y’all talk about the Modernist heresy and got so into it that I ended up missing my exit off of the highway. I went 10 minutes further west than I had planned. I guess what I’m trying to say is… keep up the good work!

  • Corey

    Tried the caffine nap thing and it helped energize me some before my Theology of God class.

  • Julie Ashton

    Sorry, I have no website. I have a confession, but I am sick and can’t go to the priest right now. The confession is that I deliberately did not go to Mass on October 7, to the only Sunday Mass I can get to because I also attend the Church of Christ with my anti-Catholic husband.
    I missed Mass because I am so distressed at the honky-tonk, bump-and-grind music being used for the Alleluia and the Agnus Dei. I so dread that part of the Mass now that I practically break out in hives when I think about it and I’m not kidding! This makes Dan Schutte’s music look attractive in the way a scorpion makes a roach look cuddly. (I got that last from Et tu, Jen?)
    However, I realize I am having my old Protestant reactions to things: you know, you don’t like something so you just move on. I realize that in the real Church you swallow your pride, pray for grace, and love the musician and the service while still being a member of the Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen.
    To hear you acknowlege that there is a real problem with the music in the Church makes me somewhat weak with relief. I wonder if you have read the essay by Catholic Annie Diilard (also a convert) called Journey to the Pole. Because she is a poet, she makes her point a la Flannery O’Connor, in a way one cannot forget, and it is on this subject. (It is found in the book Teaching a Stone to Talk.) Blessings.

  • Julie Ashton

    Sorry, that’s Annie Dillard, two L’s.

  • Julie Ashton

    Last thing on the subject, I promise. Christian Rock music is a great way to worship — outside of Mass.

    But, here’s the thing: the Protestant convert to the Church finds a great treasure in the Mass. Having been used to a certain type of meeting which is basically like an Amway seminar, to come to know the Mass is a revelation about worship itself. The Mass has a holiness that should be reflected in its music. Good music at a Sunday Mass is heaven! But the Daily Mass is also wonderful because it has no music at all, nor announcements, nor performers up front, and the very silence is worship.

    Thank you for your Podcast. I really liked the discussion on the first episode, the Pilot! I am gradually catching up on all of them.

  • http://catholicboard.com Carson Weber

    Question: I’m looking into purchasing the iPhone. Should I wait or go ahead and make the purchase? Do you guys think a big upgrade (e.g. larger hard drive) is coming soon?

  • Steve O’Neill

    A question for Julie Ashton — I was just curious what kind of reception you got when you mentioned your misgivings about the music to the members of the music ministry or the liturgy committee. I’d like to think that if you had some ideas to offer, they’d be receptive toward a helping hand.

  • Julie Ashton

    You’ve caught me, Steve. I am a new Catholic: while I am courageous with the anonymous crowd, to tell the actual People in Charge what I’m feeling — well, would I look arrogant? Would I hurt someone’s feelings? But you are right; if something affects the pew-sitter that much, the pew-sitter needs to speak up in love and humility.
    By next Wednesday, I will tell you what kind of reception I got. Thank you.

  • Julie Ashton

    If you are reading this, Steve, you have checked back many days later than Wednesday, October 31. My apologies; I should know not to predict the future.

    I was finally able to talk with the pianist . She said she plays what the choir director assigns, and is no happier than I am with the Rhythm and Blues Mass settings. So, since even the pianist has no voice, I need to forgive, to participate, to not complain. Soli deo gloria!

  • Steve O’Neill

    Hey there, Julie — I’m glad I checked back! Great to hear you had a chat with the pianist. If she’s none too pleased, and you’re none too pleased, I might think that there are additional parishioners who might be hoping for some different selections too…

    Fr. Chris, Fr. Ryan — Are you still tracking this thread? Do you, as parish Priests, have any thoughts as to what the protocol here might be? Could it be that the pastor digs the R&B groove and things are stuck where they are? Or should a parish worship ministry be a place where Julie could have some input? I’ve been in a parish before where there was a forceful personality in charge of the choir (to the point of excluding willing parishioners in favor of paid outsiders), so I can totally sympathize with Julie’s predicament. In our case, our pastor was in the director’s corner and we had to wait them out. Certainly it would be quite unseemly to get into a intraparish squabble about music or a number of other subjects, but one can hope for at least an opportunity for dialog… Any thoughts?

  • http://www.catholicunderground.com/fatherryan Fr. Ryan

    Hey there Steve & Julie

    As a seminarian, I was also in a couple of parish choir\”music ministry” situations and ultimately it came down to the priest. Either the priest took charge and said we’ll be doing this or that genre of music or he set aside his authority\responsibility and left it up to the director to operate based on what s\he believed would “best help the people worship”. Julie should have every right to express her opinion, doubly so when she is supported by the papal teaching, Tradition, and theology of the Catholic Church. She is also especially qualified to speak to the matter since she is someone who is open to a “praise & worship” type of music as a spiritual exercise.

    I feel the same way Julie. I love protestant praise & worship style music. I have hundreds of songs on my iPod(s) from those bands. But it doesn’t have a place at the Holy Mass. The fact that you are not, on principle, opposed to that genre of music makes you all the better suited to speak to the appropriateness of this music at Mass. It really is one thing to dismiss the opinion of someone who walks in totally calcitrant – nothing but this all the time, I don’t care what the GIRM says. But Julie is in the right here and he opinion should be respected.

    At the same time, we live in a fallen world where error is rampant, even among priests and bishops. I think the best thing Julie can do is speak about her misgivings with a friend who can help her clarify her thoughts. Then, she should speak with the Music Director and clearly state her concerns. And then, in a very open way, she could speak to the pastor and, without seeming to go over the head of the director, express her concerns and her reasons for them.

    Every Catholic has a right to the treasures of the Church and to the Holy Mass celebrated well – it’s not arrogant or pompous to ask for that which you are entitled to by Baptism!

    Pax
    Fr. Ryan

  • Steve O’Neill

    …and to add to the end of Fr. Ryan’s “celebrated well” thought:

    “Good celebrations foster and nourish faith. Poor celebrations may weaken and destroy it.”

    From “Music in Catholic Worship” (Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy, no. 6).

    Indeed!

    Pax et bonum,

    Steve

  • Julie Ashton

    Wow — many thanks for the kind replies.

    Because I am absolutely unable to participate as a volunteer in the music of the Church, my status as Sidewalk Superintendent seems assured. I plead old age, bad eyes, poor hearing , and a husband that wants me at Home. However, I will take your advice, insofar as taking any opportunity to talk this out with anyone I am led to. In the meantime, prayer will be my avenue of activism.

    Background: raised in the Church of Christ, no instrumental music or choirs, but in a segment of that body (see Reviving the Ancient Faith by Richard Hughes, Eerdman’s Publisher) which had particularly wonderful hymns (1700s). Good four-part harmony, raise-the-roof singing.

    Got a Master’s in Music, singing incredible Catholic and High-Church Protestant music for 25 years. Professional opera singer. Got into the Jesus movement, got married (late), spent the next 25 years in Praise and Worship bands, including Charismatic Episcopal. My dear husband dropped out of church altogether, but when I became Catholic, he went back to the church of our growing-up. This church now sings Praise and Worship music, a capella, and badly, as badly as any Catholic congregation, because P&W requires a good band. The music is rhythmically too difficult for the average congregant, and too performance-oriented for true worship in the Eucharistic setting. (The book Why Catholics Can’t Sing is a bit acidic, but truthful — the fact that it never became a best seller as it should have, speaks volumes. The Church will not change quickly in this matter.)

    Entered the Church Easter 2006. Cool and quiet, a deep forest glade to come into after the noisy, colorful Carnival of Enthusiasm.

    Old age? Maybe. But I would not want to squelch any youthful love for Praise and Worship. I loved the Gen-X Friday night rock bands at the Vineyard, early 90s. But let’s also teach the joy of silence, dignity, meditation, and (thanks, Fr Chris) Tradition.

    You have blessed me, Steve and Fr Chris, with your interest. I shall now fade into the background on the subject, though I will post again if any influence of mine materializes!!

    Grace and Peace — Julie

  • Ken H.

    I just wanted to add a little of my own commentary to the music
    situation in the Church today. There are a few pet peeves that I have
    with things that I see and hear in our parish.

    One of them is the type of “hymns” that are in our “worship aids”
    (from OCP, I don’t recall the specific name of the publications) the
    selection of songs that are there are varied, and they have some of
    the more traditional and a great deal of the “modern”. One thing that
    really bugs me is when a new release of the Mass book or Music issue
    comes out, even the traditional hymns will suddenly have changes to
    the words. One example (and too bad that I can’t remember all of the
    rewordings that took place) is the song “Sing with All the Sons of
    Glory” was now “Sing with All the Saints of Glory”. And I’ve seen a
    lot of rewordings like that. Another “interesting” re-wording of a
    song is one that we use for the Psalm at Sunday Mass – “All the Ends
    of the Earth”. I don’t know where these rewrites come from, but some
    of the phrases that our choir sings are even different from what it in
    the OCP publication. As an example, the line that is printed “His
    right hand has won the victory for him, his holy arm” somehow comes
    out “His right hand has won a victory for us, God’s holy arm”?

    I also like the Praise and Worship music – OUTSIDE of Mass! At the
    past Boston Catholic Men’s Conference, Martin Doman was the musician
    that was leading the music. Many wonderful P&W songs – I have two of
    his CDs and enjoy listening to them. He sang the hymns for the Mass
    that was offered at the end of that day – nicely played and he has a
    wonderful voice, so the comment about the songs being too complicated
    for the average Catholic at Mass is a good comment, because the songs
    performed by a talented musician with talented accompaniment work
    quite nicely (although he also sang many traditional songs, because I
    think that he is very sensitive to that, too.) We have a monthly
    “Youth Mass” at our parish, and I’ve gotten to the point where I try
    to avoid it – I feel that it gets to be a little too much of a
    sideshow – drums and tambourines included!

    One of my final comments is that on occasion, our choir will trot out
    the song “We Shall Gather by the River”, most recently as a Communion
    “meditation” song… The song notwithstanding, I have to say that my
    opinion is that the tambourine is not a musical instrument that
    readily lends itself to the meditative state. But for some reason
    there has to be a particularly lively tambourine interpretation when
    they sing that song. I have commented to our Pastor about that. I
    even suggested to him that perhaps when he does his after-Thanksgiving
    ritual of smashing a Blue Hubbard squash on the church driveway
    (completely outside the context of the Mass – just so you know!) that
    perhaps he could put the tambourine under it.

    To be fair, we do have a moderate dose of the “classic” hymns such as
    “Humbly We Adore Thee”, but those seem to be reserved for the more
    solemn times of the year, like Lent and Advent. I long for the choir
    to have a Communion meditation song of “Jesus, My Lord, My God, My
    All” – I’ve mentioned it to our music director on several occasions.
    I actually heard it once, at a Eucharistic Holy Hour that we had a
    couple years ago. I wish we would switch to the Adoremus Hymnal!

    Well, this was a lengthy reply – my apologies for that. I do enjoy
    hearing a group of people who value those traditions, and who would
    like to keep them alive in our Church! Keep up the good work, the
    podcasts are great and I enjoy listening to them.

    God bless you all!
    Ken